Our first episode back for the long awaited season two and we’re talking about the 2014 clash of cultures historical dramedy, Pride. Also one of Rowan’s favourite films.
This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!
New episodes every other Thursday.
Find Us on the Internet Super Highway
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod
- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast
- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/
- Multitude: @MultitudeShows
Production
- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John
- Editor: Julia Schifini
- Executive Producer: Multitude
- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd
Transcript:
JAZZA: Welcome, to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best --
ROWAN: -- and worst...
JAZZA: --in LGBTQ+ Cinema. One glorious genre at a time.
ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.
JAZZA: And I'm Jazza John.
ROWAN: And we're back after a short amount of time— only two years — with another episode. Do you want to tell them why, Jazza?
JAZZA: No, it's not my fault.
ROWAN: Okay, well that's a lie. Each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.
JAZZA: This episode's genre is...
JAZZA & ROWAN: Queer Biopic!
JAZZA: Cool, intriguing,
ROWAN: So coordinated.
JAZZA: And we are so excited for the film we're talking about this time. It is the 2014, clash of cultures, historical dramedy, Pride. Also, fun fact, one of Rowan's favorite films.
ROWAN: It is!
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: But seeing as it's been a while, we thought we should reintroduce our new look podcast, and set some expectations.
JAZZA: Ooh. Love an expectation set.
ROWAN: That sounded very official.
JAZZA: We're being incredibly official, don't take this away from us. We're gonna be coming at you with— biweekly episodes now, which, knowing our track record is ambitious, but honestly, we really are. But, now we have the backing --
ROWAN: Oooh.
JAZZA: -- of Multitude. The podcast collective that we have just joined!
ROWAN: So, Multitude's mission is to create shows about subjects that we—because yes, we are part of a "we" now, love! From mythology, to basketball, to Dungeons and Dragons, to Queer movies, and build thoughtful and welcoming communities around them. You can check them out at multitude.productions and on all the socials @MultitudeShows
JAZZA: Got to get that good SEO. So, we're very, very, very, very, very, very excited, to get back into this. But as it is... as is customary for us to ask every episode, Rowan, what's the gayest thing you've done recently?
ROWAN: So, essentially Jazza, I was in the park and a girl came up to me and asked me if I knew where the softball field was. And I think that's pretty gay because I can only— I assumed, that she had seen me, gone, "That's a lesbian" and been like, "She'll know where the softball field is." So I, thinking, "Ah, this girl wants to know where the softball field is. We have an understanding that softball is a gay sport." Joked about the fact like "Oh, you know, I am a lesbian, but I don't know where it is." And she, I've never seen a girl look more mortified in my entire life. She thought I'd— she'd like, gravely insulted me. And then I had to be like, "No, no!" I'm like, and I looked down on myself and I was like, I'm clearly dressed as a lesbian. Like, I don't know what— that like, like, this isn't offending me, and it got very awkward. And so, she laughed, and then had to come back five minutes later because she hadn't found someone else who knew and was like, "I'm sorry, I do actually need to find it. Can I borrow your phone?" And it was... it was so funny, but I was like, how— how can you be looking for a softball field and not be like, with it, in the lesbian banter?
JAZZA: I assumed it would be some kind of like, gay, female, cockney rhyming slang, or something along those lines. Like, if I had been there in the moment, I did assumed it was some kind of really elaborate flirting, that only queer women do.
ROWAN: No, sadly, it was just a panic straight.
JAZZA: Oh. And you only... only increased the panic.
ROWAN: I know. Uh, how about you Jazza, what's the gayest thing you've done since we recorded last episode?
JAZZA: So there's only, kind of like, uh, there's only really two gay things that I ever talk about --
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: -- that I've, uhm, done these episodes, and any previous listeners to other episodes that we have done, will know that it is drag or rowing with the gay rowing team. Uhm, and, this time, it is, uh, drag. So, went down, like, with restrictions are lifting in the UK and we can go out? So, I went down to Bournemouth to see my lovely little drag fam, Nova and Olympia, my... my mother and long-suffering aunt. And Nova beat my face, made me look passable. Uhm, I ended up spending— oh, I accidentally shoplifted Primark because my card didn't go through. I did a last-minute run to get, like, some necessities for Polly. That's who I am in drag, by the way, her name is Polly Tickle. The name is better than the presentation, I'll be completely honest. But probably, the gayest thing is, that I have been suffering for the past, like, week and a half since I went down and did that big, lovely, soirée, with cuts along my torso from where I tied my corset too tight.
ROWAN: Look, that's pretty gay. Oh, those are rough! Okay, uhm, for the— for listeners at home, Jazza, just flashed me a little bit of nipple. Uhm, as he showed me his side. It was --
JAZZA: Just a little bit of hairy chest, you know.
ROWAN: Just a little bit of hairy chest. Uhm, very appreciated.
JAZZA: Mhmm. You're welcome.
ROWAN: So, first, we're going to give you a short introduction to the history that forms the backdrop of Pride, as well as how the film came to be made and marketed.
JAZZA: We will then be splitting the film into three acts because if GCSE English has taught us anything, it's that things come in threes.
ROWAN: And finally, we'll give the movie our very special gay ratings, as always.
JAZZA: A heads up, we are going to be spoiling all of this movie. So, this is for people who have seen the movie or don't care about the movie being spoiled. Alright, we've warned you.
ROWAN: But you should see this movie. So, without further ado, let's all get on the bus to the picket line, and talk about Pride.
JAZZA: So, Pride is explicitly a gay movie, otherwise, we wouldn't be talking about it. But, it is also kind of like a historical piece about one of the longest-standing and most impactful pieces of workers uniting and protesting, in history. And that is the 1984-85 UK miners' strike, which saw many pits, uh, many workers in coal mining pits across the United Kingdom, uh, Scotland, Wales, and England, primarily. Where they ended up, uhm, decided to go on strike, not going to work and really putting themselves at loggerheads and at odds with the Conservative government, headed by the notorious, Maggie T. Who is, for those who are uninitiated, Margaret Thatcher.
ROWAN: Yes, a classic backdrop to a fun-filled comedy movie. Just the 1980's miners' strike.
JAZZA: Yeah, 100%. So, it was violent, there were deaths during the strike, as well. Some of the characteristics of the strikes are really well documented in this movie. A couple that I'd like to talk about are the busing in of police from different parts of the UK --
ROWAN: This movie releases ACAB with it's full chest, I will say that.
JAZZA: -- where people who were not connected to the local communities, were there policing the pickets. The police were there to ensure that those workers that chose to ignore the strike, or needed to go into work, because of the needing to earn money and support their families, so that they were able to cross the picket lines, but obviously, uhm, because of the nature of the political situation at the time that often turned into violence. And it is important that we also kind of like, this is about people who chose to strike, but, this was a yearlong strike, where the unions ended up having to support their workers for an incredibly long time, through kind of like the collective action of the union and collective donations from other unions, that eventually ran out. And there are certain parts of this movie where we see the collection of food so that the families of miners who choose to not go into work didn't actively starve. And this was stuff that was spoken about in Parliament, a lot of the time, the Conservative government were actively trying to, it was never an explicit policy, obviously, to starve out the families of those who are choosing to go on strike; to protest the closing of the coal mines, but it was, uh, certainly a consequence of the lowering of benefits that people were able to claim, the increasing of red tape around the collection of benefits, where, if you were part of a union, for example, and there were really real, real consequences to the lives of so many of the people who were part of these communities that had already been hugely decimated. So, at the point of this movie in 1984, uhm, South Wales, for example, had already seen an 80% reduction in the number of people working in coal mines. And then by 2015, there were no more coal mines functioning in the United Kingdom. There were, I think, 172 at the beginning of the... of the strike in 1984. I've talked a lot about, kind of like, the unions and the workers' right, and this is deliberately juxtaposed and kind of like, put alongside the Queer Liberation Movement in the 1980s, which were also a huge part of the family values, and, uhm, oh, won’t people think of the children, social conservatism that was rife, not only in the UK but around the world. Hey, America, have you heard of Ronald Reagan?
ROWAN: Have you heard of Anita Bryant? Have you heard of all those lovely people?
JAZZA: And it was, at this time, that HIV was just starting to, kind of like, really pick up in the public consciousness. We are shown in this film, a really chilling advert that was broadcast across the UK. It's very famous, it's of a tombstone that just says "AIDS" over the front of it. That was actually broadcast a few years after the miner's strike, but we'll allow it, for storytelling purposes. This film tells the story of those two oppressed groups in the 1980s. Finding common ground, despite their differences, to rise up against an antagonistic figure, like Thatcher.
ROWAN: That was very well summarized. That's a lot of information. I do wonder when I... when I watched this movie, how much people who aren't from the UK know? Because I feel like we, a lot of people in the UK might not know a ton of stuff, admittedly. But I feel like we're more likely to know about... about Thatcher and the miners' strike.
JAZZA: You know, there was a miners' strike, right? At the very least, you know --
ROWAN: Yes, yes.
JAZZA: -- that, that was a really big deal. Yeah.
ROWAN: Definitely. And I really, really would be interested to know, if there is anyone out there listening who's from another country, who would like to shed light on whether this was something you knew anything about before watching the movie, please let us know because I would love to hear about it. So, I'm going to talk a little bit about, more of the kind of, movie history in the movie genre. So, we've picked biopic this time. Some of the questions that you normally think about when you think about biopics is, like, how was this made? How did— how did people find out about this particular story? How do you do the real people, justice? Are you trying to do it, almost documentary style, very realistic, like, or are you going to try and embellish it? And how do you choose what to change? So, for this film, really interestingly, the... the writer was sort of the one who ended up getting it made. So, that is Stephen Beresford. He basically heard about this story in the mid ‘90s, and it kind of was talked about as, a story that went around the London Queer scene at the time, but, no one really knew if it was true or not. It was... it was almost, this kind of like, game of telephone where people like— "I mean, that would be amazing if it was true" --
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: -- but they weren't really sure if it was. But he was talking to someone about, a conversation that I feel like, is like, a conversation as old as time, in the queer community. Are we political enough? Should we be more political? Like all this kind of stuff. And they were also talking about the miners, and he basically was like, "Well, why should I support the miners, they would never support me." And this story came up from a friend who had heard it, he said, it completely changed his outlook on things. And so in 2010, he had a meeting with the producer, David Livingstone, who basically asked at the end of this meeting, you know, "Is there a story that you're burning to write?" And he basically went, "There's one. There is one story, but it will never get made." And he said afterwards, like, "You know, if you drop that in a pitch, you only get one chance to say that in your career to someone, and mean it."
JAZZA: Mmm.
ROWAN: And he basically just told him the story. And he said, by the end, like, David was almost in tears, like, his eyes were, like, welling up. And it was like, "Cool. We, we're going to do this together." And it was difficult to persuade people to make it. But they actually found this half-hour documentary that LGSM had made for the miners, called "All Out! Dancing in Dulais" which was basically an amateur documentary, so it didn't have, like, anyone's names in it. It didn't have anything like that. But it was footage of, like, everyone that, basically, everyone we see in this movie.
JAZZA: Mmm.
ROWAN: And in the credits, they found this really uncommon name, that was Reggie's name. And they contacted him on Facebook, and basically were like, "LGSM, this was a thing, right?” And he introduced them to everyone else. And so, pretty much everyone who was in this— a real person who was in this movie, was not necessarily involved, but was like, informed it was happening. And they all were unbelievably supportive at the screening, they did, the first screening, they invited all of them. And the real Dai, basically like, asked to speak and gave this like, emotional, really moving beautiful speech, where he wanted to thank them and he basically said, "None of us believed this story would see the light of day. It's a document for the future and exists for all time." And then, they went for a piss-up.
JAZZA: Of course, they did. Oh! That's so beautiful.
ROWAN: Which is so cute. And like, for example, like, Ray and Reggie are still together. Like, they're the couple who get together in the movie in order— like, they joined LGSM as a thing to do as a couple, and they're still together now. So, this is... this is a really interesting biopic, right? Because it's not about famous figures. It's not, you know, someone that the audience will be looking at the accent, or the mannerisms to see whether it's a good biopic or not. So, they had a lot more freedom. The real-life Jonathan has basically said it's about 70% true, 30% invention. So, like Mark, for example, --
JAZZA: That's still a lot of truth though.
ROWAN: -- it's... it's a lot of truth to it. Like, Mark, for example, in real life, was the one who said that they should start raising money for the miners. He was this, like, young, energetic, young activist who was very, kind of like, into left-wing politics. But, like, tiny things changed in terms of, there was a phone call in the movie, and it was a letter that they wrote in the actual reality to the mining community. They played up the clash of cultures a bit more. So, the village had... had a lot of visitors. Like, everything, from, they said, like, Swedish Euro Communists, and Maoists; like, tons of people had come in. So, at that point, they weren't that like --
JAZZA: Swedish Euro, --
ROWAN: -- how wild...
JAZZA: -- Communists...
ROWAN: I know
JAZZA: I love that shit.
ROWAN: Incredible. So, basically, they kind of decided, and they were very open from the beginning. "Look, we're going to be in service of the themes, of the story, of the messages. We're going to go as close as possible to your experiences." But like, for example, they invented the character of Joe, or Bromley, as is a sort of, weigh into the world because, obviously, the rest of the characters are very entrenched within the queer community or the mining communities. So, it will be difficult to have a, you know, a weigh-in, for an audience. One thing I think, is really interesting, it's actually, I watched this on... on Amazon Prime, and the first, sort of like, message that pops up around it is, at the beginning, like point zero of the movie, and it's like, "This movie has been criticized for its lack of racial diversity." Which to me is really interesting, because I, my personal feeling about, like, biopics and diversity is when you're portraying, like, real people, and it's not a deliberately stylized piece; I don't really feel, like, within individual movies, changing people's identities to make them “more diverse” is that useful. And this is at a point at which the UK was over 90% white. The people involved were all white, like, this was... this was not something where they were, like, the movie Stonewall, for example, criticized for like, taking out the agency, of --
JAZZA: Yeah, they literally --
ROWAN: -- of people of color or, or trans people, it was just a thing with— with real people, that they were portraying. And I think that, what's a more useful conversation to have, for me personally, around any kind of diversity; whether it's about gender, or disability, or ethnicity, or religion, is to actually look at the landscape of movies as a whole. And be like, okay, whose stories are being chosen to be told. And I feel like this story that's a lot about, like, working class, very marginalized people in other ways, is still worth it and doesn't necessarily lose something as a particular film for portraying that story.
JAZZA: I think that is valid criticism. But also when it is, like, I understand the... the point that, when you're telling somebody’s biopic, you can't just flip South Wales to be ethnically diverse, because it's still ain't, to be completely honest. It does make me think, oh, what were the people of color, the trans voices, like, what were they doing here? --
ROWAN: Exactly.
JAZZA: -- There is one criticism I have with the movie, that maybe we'll leave later. And that's kind of like the way that lesbians are generally portrayed in the film.
ROWAN: We will... We will talk about that later. Don't worry.
JAZZA: Which I think could have been better. But it does make me think, oh, where could the camera also be pointed here? That's not to say it's a bad movie, or that it is this movie's job to do that, but it certainly is a gap that is missing from this time period, so.
ROWAN: Mhmm. One last thing to say that I think is really interesting, and I bring this up as well. I know we just mentioned about people in America, and what they think of it. So, notoriously, the US DVD cover of this movie edited out all mentions of queerness, from the summary and also from the banners, like, the Pride March banners on the cover.
JAZZA: Oh, bloody hell. Anybody buying it in the US is in for a surprise, aren't they?
ROWAN: Yes.
JAZZA: What are they expecting?
ROWAN: So, this was what's really interesting, right? It's like, well, do you market a film by making it “as appealing as possible”? So, people who wouldn't necessarily have thought to pick it up, --
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: -- because of the gay stuff, might be kind of pleasantly surprised. They might, you know, “Oh, maybe I wouldn't have watched it if I knew, but now I've watched it. It’s a really good movie.” But also, are they sort of stopping actual queer people from finding this movie, because, they will be like, “Well, I had no idea. That's what it was actually about.” And the director has sort of been very, uh, tried to be very polite about it. Sort of saying that it's like, understandable as a strategy. But it's also, like, clumsy, and foolish, and reductive, with the words that he used, which I tend to agree with. So that's kind of like, uh, it kind of interestingly got more press, I think, I saw within the US for this weird DVD decision than it necessarily got, so --
JAZZA: Oh, so it worked.
ROWAN: -- so, I guess it kind of worked, if that was, uhm, that was what they’re intending.
JAZZA: In a backhanded sort of way.
ROWAN: Uh, exactly. And the last thing I want to say, just about the genre is, uhm, this kind of secondary genre of this biopic is clash of cultures, which I think is a very, very staple, British— I mean, it's… it's a— it's a genre in other countries as well, but in Britain particularly, is extremely kind of, part of the fabric of… of our, like, filmmaking landscape. Because, I think, if you look at like “Billy Elliot” if you look at like, “Bend It Like Beckham”, so many of these movies that have a real heart to them, are often talking about clashes of class, clashes of gender, clashes of… you know, race or ethnicity, like it really is looking at different people, and them coming together in a way that's very positive and uplifting. And it's a genre that's like, a lot of people's favorite for that kind of reason. But they will often not shy away from the more difficult aspects of that, as well, which I think is something that this… this film balances really well. Which I guess is a good lead-in to talk about the film itself.
JAZZA: Oh my God, look at you, you segue queen.
ROWAN: Thank you very much.
JAZZA: So, the first of the three acts that we have in this movie, I have called, “The Party and Its Aftermath”. The party, being, the party that we have at Pride, and then at Gay’s The Word. We open with something that is a backbone of this movie, and that is the music, specifically, the protest songs. “Solidarity forever, --
ROWAN: Wow.
JAZZA: -- and the union makes us strong.”
ROWAN: I thought you were gonna say, “We open with the backbone of this movie, hating Margaret Thatcher.” because, that’s also how it opens.
JAZZA: It is also how I— uhm, and also, with a banner saying “Thatcher Out!” hanging out of our protagonist? Mark’s council flat, where he has an epiphany, sees that all of the miners are being, uh, beaten by the police, or pigs, as he calls them in this movie. And thinks, “Ah, we, the gays, have not been beaten up by the police in a while, it's because they've all been shipped to the coal mines in order to defend the picket lines.”
ROWAN: Mhmm
JAZZA: And then he's like, ah, a brainwave. And off he goes, to Gay’s The Word.
ROWAN: So, you… you did a lot of detail on that one scene and then skipped all the way, to like, five scenes later. Um, I just want to say about the scene, what I really appreciated right from the start, is I think that there is, within media, a lot of not very good portrayals of activism. A lot of… a lot of time, the activists are particularly there to be a foil, to like, the good minority. I really like the fact that the first time we see him, is this real, like so many dualities, right? It's this guy who has just clearly had casual sex with a man he never plans on calling again, who's just like, “I left my number, you know, just in case you want to call me.”
JAZZA: Oh, I felt so, sorry for this, very one lad.
ROWAN: And, Mark is just like, not interested because he's about to do some politics, instead. But, so we have this really casual mention with sexuality, but he's also clearly, really beloved by the kids on the estate.
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: Like he comes out and they're like, “Oh, can we play later?” And he's like, “Oh, you know, it's all right, mate. Like, we'll pay later.” And that was really exciting for me to see because it's so aware, this movie is always very aware of, like, all of the different stereotypes and ideas around queerness. And so having this like, very open, not at all judged sexuality, and have him being very— like, it’s totally normal for him to just be, someone who's like, the kids think is really fun and nice on the estate in the way that, does happen when you're growing up in those kind of communities where you have people living around each other, was really, really great. Speaking of growing up, we also get introduced to Bromley, who is called Bromley based on the area that he grew up. I also grew up in Bromley, and therefore have to say he’s— he's the best character of all time in any piece of media ever. Just from… just from hometown loyalty.
JAZZA: Why have I never called you Bromley? I don't understand.
ROWAN: Yeah, honestly, rude that you haven't. –
JAZZA: I guess so.
ROWAN: -- And there's also, so many Bromley in-jokes in this movie. It's really— it's great because no one will get them except for people from Bromley.
JAZZA: By... by the way, has gone way over my head.
ROWAN: Yeah, it's hilarious. The line he has about having to get the last train— if you're from Bromley, that is genuinely one of the funniest jokes has ever been told. But no one else would even clock it as a joke, which is ridiculous. But yeah, I just like, the solidarity themeing in this movie begins from the very beginning, right? Like, it comes in, from the jump. Talking about wanting to help the miners, just this, intercommunity banter of like, “I'll give the banner to the lesbians. They love a banner.” Like, this really, kind of jokes, that you can only make if you're part of the community that feel really authentic to the kind of like, banter that we have, like, even on this podcast, like, this is... this is the kind of stuff that we just like; very British as well, to be like, I love you, therefore, I'm gonna take the mickey out of you.
JAZZA: Yeah, exactly. It's how we show love, by the way, listener.
ROWAN: And I really appreciate you--
JAZZA: She doesn't actually hate me.
ROWAN: Mmm. Okay, well. Yeah. But, yeah, like, we also have this moment with Bromley, where he— this mother kind of walks past him and mutters like “ugh, disgusting” about the Pride March, he's just stumbled into. And he kind of says, like, yeah, really awkwardly. And always, um, it's like, so fucking sad for like, one second. And then almost immediately, like, we as an audience, we’re so ready to go on this journey with him, of self-discovery. Almost immediately, he... he, in himself, decides that he's just going to go back into the March and... and be himself and start this journey.
JAZZA: Yeah, you see the— the flick on his face, right?
ROWAN: Yeah, you... you know, we don't have this storyline, that's like, a coming-out storyline, where he spends the entire movie waiting to come out, and then he's suddenly out. It's like, actually, he does all of this stuff, within the movie; within this very particular queer community, and they're coming out as, to external people. And he makes that decision. He's not outed, he's not whatever, like, he makes that decision in that moment. And there's this little bit of power in this particular moment to decide to enter this community, to decide to…
JAZZA: Mmm.
ROWAN: He sees the sign saying, burn in hell, and he starts shouting louder. And I really appreciated that in the movie, that later on, we're going to have an outing for him, that he's still given some agency with an element of his queer identity. I really, really appreciated that.
JAZZA: Yeah, I love that. I have a question because we see him kind of like, stumble out of the tube, and then the... the Pride March is just kind of like, happening.
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: I don't know— and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know if we're ever explicitly told. Did he intentionally go to see the Pride Parade? Or was this an accident happenstance?
ROWAN: So, we're not told it, and I think that, that I also really liked that. Like, we dip into these characters’ lives and out again. And there's these moments where we suddenly discover something new about a character. And it's like, oh, these are like, fully rounded human beings. And we're just seeing an element of their lives. And we don't necessarily see the rest of it. And this is, I think, one of those examples.
JAZZA: Mhmm. I don't know which one it is. Like, I think it could be both --
ROWAN: It could be both.
JAZZA: -- where both make sense for his character.
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: And both are kind of like, equally brilliant as kind of like, kickoffs of the story.
ROWAN: Yeah. So, we… We do end up at Gay’s The Word after they've had a nice little Pride after-party, in which we find out that Bromley isn't legal, because he's 20 and not 21. Because at this time, it was one of the time periods where we had a legal difference between queer people and non-queer people, which was the age of consent that they're talking about here,
JAZZA: And was still, um, there was still a gap until I think, 2000 or 2001.
ROWAN: Very, very recent. And then we go to Gay’s The Word! Which is a bookshop, which still exists today, and that I went to just a few weeks ago, and go to all the time, and they're probably sick of me by now. If you're ever in London, dear listeners, go to --
JAZZA: Go to—
JAZZA & ROWAN: Go to Gay’s The Word.
JAZZA: And they’re the friendliest staff --
ROWAN: Oh! The nicest people in the world.
JAZZA: -- it’s like, old school bookshop, you can go in and ask for a recommendation. There is everything from, kind of like, if you're feeling a little bit naughty; at the slightly more erotic side of things. Um, but there's also everything from, kind of like, historical pictures --
ROWAN: Trust Jazza, to… to go with that, the first recommendation.
JAZZA: I am a man with needs in lockdown. Like, don't come for me. Uh, but they have kind of like, basically, if it comes within, like, spitting distance of queerness, it’s in there.
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: Or they'll order it in for you.
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: And of course, you're supporting a local bookshop, as well. And it still looks exactly the same as it does in the movie!
ROWAN: Here's our, that's our indie bookshop plug for this episode. It's just such a delight to see it on screen. And now like, every time I go there, there are people who are there because of this movie. Like it's... it's so wonderful that it's kind of brought people into that kind of history. And while they're in there, we have this big, impassioned speech from Mark. He says, “There's been hardly any petrol bombs or swastikas. Is it just me or the police getting soft?” They really pull no punches in this movie.
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: But it also is like, this kind of joking about serious things, it's very in the spirit of— of kind of marginalized trauma in a lot of ways, --
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: -- amongst your own community, that it's like, it's such a given. And then you still have these moments of seriousness. So, like, only like, a few minutes later in the script, you have this guy from Durham who talks about being... having the shit kicked out of him on the way to school and on the way back, by these, like, miners— people who grew up to be miners. So, we're kind of looking at the idea that there's still this difference... these differences between the communities; this clash of cultures, and that there might be limits to solidarity that were— might be some hurdles for them to overcome before this all, --
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: -- has a lovely happy ending. I got a prop just before I started filming. Uhm, so this the --
JAZZA: Oh, I love a prop.
ROWAN: -- this is a...
JAZZA: You stunt queen.
ROWAN: This is a book which, is --
JAZZA: Ah!
ROWAN: -- basically, it's the Pride companion book, signed by members of LGSM. That I got signed at the launch event at Gay’s The Word, a few years ago.
JAZZA: Oh, wow. You are very cool.
ROWAN: I know, thank you very much. Including --
JAZZA: Why are you touching that? Vacuum pack it.
ROWAN: I know, I need to, like, vacuum seal it. Incredible work. But yeah, it's really, so we get introduced to all of our main players, in the kind of, wider cast, to Gethin and Jonathan, uhm, who are the older gay couples. So, they're referred to as, gay lib, as like, a bit of a joke.
JAZZA: Yeah, I'm so sorry. They are no older than their mid-30s. I think that that is an absolute slur.
ROWAN: Mhmm. I just love these— God, I love these characters in this bookshop so much, and it's just, I just want to watch it forever. I'm like, please I just want to watch you— get real people/characters hang out, literally forever.
JAZZA: Steph I think, is my favorite character.
ROWAN: She is also incredible.
JAZZA: So, she is the heavily eyelined, and hair do’ed lesbian. And is the L in LGSM, which is Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, which is the group they end up founding after this party, and she just brings cutting sarcasm, and like, but joy and love to this movie. Eventually, at the end— spoiler, this whole podcast is a spoiler, moving in and kind of like, befriending Bromley and being kind of like, roommates, and best friends there. I just wanted to give Steph a big shout-out, because I think she might be my favorite.
ROWAN: I love her. Oh, I think it's personally, very important to point out that Bromley College is kind of a joke in Bromley, so it was like, doubly funny that he was lying and losing his mind with boredom going to Bromley College to do catering. Just love Bromley humor guys.
JAZZA: Two words, glossy and wobbly.
ROWAN: Glossy and wobbly.
JAZZA: So, they decided that they're going to raise money for miners, somewhere. Any miners. None of them have any idea where miners are, to the point where they get out a phonebook. Remember those children? Uh, no, you probably don't, because they haven't existed for 20 years. Um, and they were flicking through to try and find kind of like a mine, to give the money to directly, because they were trying to go through the unions. And as soon as they found out that the organization that was raising money for them was Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, they were rejecting it or just not getting back to them. So, they thought, we're going to bypass that, go straight to the source of the... of the communities, the people who need it. And then, Gethin comes in and goes, “Well, if it's— if --
ROWAN: Oh, yeah, I saw the panic in your eyes as you started to attempt the Welsh accent and I was like, “Don't do it Jazza.”
JAZZA (in Welsh accent): -- If it's if it's miners you want, it's Wales.”
ROWAN: Incredible work.
JAZZA: How was that?
ROWAN: Incredible voicework there, from Jazza John.
JAZZA: Thank you very much. I'm available.
ROWAN: Which is— which is... Yeah, fair enough. And actually, this is like, the start of the... the storyline that Gethin has, all these characters have their own mini storylines, and having so many queer characters allows you to have different opinions, different backgrounds, different ideas, different family situations, which I do really appreciate. So they essentially ring, and kind of organized to… to send the money, and someone from this mining town is going to come. There are some really great, really funny, random asides, that were— if you're not like, paying attention, you sort of miss, because it's— it goes straight from one scene to, like, a middle of a conversation. So, they're all standing outside this cafe waiting for Dai to come. And it's just an exchange, which is, “Maybe we should look more obviously gay” “Achievable goals, please, Jeff.” It's so great from Steph. So, Dai comes in, and Dai’s like an ally from the start. We really have no sort of clash with him. He takes a moment to take in the fact --
JAZZA: He's a representative…
ROWAN: -- yes. He’s a representative from the mining town. And he really takes like, one second to… to take in the fact that, “Oh, surprise, it's gays and lesbians, I've only just realized.” And then he's totally fine; he's gone to the gay bar, he's doing a speech, he's talking about solidarity, he's making jokes. And I think that, that was really, a really lovely decision to have this kind of, “Oh, you know, it's the first gays I've ever met.” And they say “That you know of.” And immediately he's like, “Yeah, no, that's true.” And I... I think it's just such a nice kind of, lovely introduction, which we then get the full-on introduction, as they make their way to Wales, to introduce themselves to the Welsh part of our cast.
JAZZA: Oh, my God. As we leave this section, --
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: -- I just want to call out, what I think is one of the greatest scenes in cinema ever.
ROWAN: Yes, please do.
JAZZA: And that is when they call up this South Wales mining community. And the phone rings— it is a yellow, touch-dial phone. And Gwen, a short, stout, charming, smiling, Welsh lady, comes walking out of the kitchen, slowly waddles her way towards the phone, and then picks it up. That's it.
ROWAN: It lasts so long, that scene. It is— she’s walking for so long.
JAZZA: It’s a good 40 seconds. Yeah, of like, this slow, like, little waddle. Up to the phone.
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: Oh, it's quite beautiful.
ROWAN: I would say it's really interesting, like, our introduction to the Welsh cast. I only really appreciated this while watching through, for like, the 80th time that I watched through for this podcast, but they really put Siân in there as a Bromley parallel. She's like the new girl in town, suddenly coming into her own, kind of discovering her identity in a slightly different way. And I really, really appreciate the relationship that they kind of have by the end. And we also have this introduction of like, it's not just outward homophobia that might be a problem, it might just be people who aren't kind of courageous enough or brave enough to stand up for other people and like, actually come with their solidarity when it matters, because we have her husband who essentially is like, “Yeah, obviously, we want to be part of this strike. We want to be part of the community. But, you know, let's not start inviting lesbians and gays, let's not rock the boat.” And so for him, it's more important that his kind of reputation and his... his standing is protected in the community, rather than having solidarity with these other groups. And so, we have this really interesting exploration of, how far are people willing to go, that it’s not just people who are actively homophobic, but there are people who just, you know, don't care enough to have solidarity. And we obviously have the uhm, every woman is a lesbian at heart, including Reggie's mum scene, which I adore. Reggie’s mum is a lesbian, canon— it's facts. So, now we move on to part two, right?
JAZZA: The second section of this movie, I am going to call “The Party and Its Aftermath”. As all of our movies have a party and its aftermath --
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: -- and this one has yet another one. Which is a party at the coal mining village. And then, there maybe— I'm just going to throw this out there now, there may be another party and its aftermath.
ROWAN: That might even be the title of the third section of this movie.
JAZZA: Yeah, yeah. Who knows?
ROWAN: I will say honestly, the party’s aftermath is in almost every single movie that we do. There is always a party, and long, longtime listeners of the podcast will know that it's... it's, I think, just at this point should be on TV Tropes, as every gay movie has a party and its aftermath, in some way or another. So, at this point, I just call this part “The Gays Have Arrived in Wales”, because that's essentially also what's going on. We have the beginning of the extremely important subplot with Gwen, trying to ask a question to the lesbians, which she's not allowed to ask because they assume that she's going to say something awfully offensive. So they cut her off.
JAZZA: I don't know why, but I automatically went to, she's going to ask about scissoring. Like, I… I just assumed that --
ROWAN: Yeah, that’s what she implied.
JAZZA: -- that’s what it was going to be, yeah.
ROWAN: She's gonna ask some really innocent question about it, and then they're gonna have to explain to this poor old Welsh lady what it means. I also really loved in this section where we're getting introduced, as you rewatch it, Cliff’s reaction, because he is unable to say “gays and lesbians”, he cannot say the phrase, and you're— it's kind of implied at first, I think, for a lot of people, but it's because he's this, like, elderly Welshman, and he's like, you know, trying not to be offensive and all this kind of stuff. And later, when you watch it, when you realize, “Oh, he's a gay man.” It's actually this moment of him being overcome with something where he, he can't say that he's gay, can't quite say the words. And it has a totally different meaning as an audience --
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: -- and it's this really, there's a couple of moments that actually get put in there with Cliff’s character, that are so subtle that unless you know about it, and you do a rewatch, you don't even pick up the first time— which I love.
JAZZA: Cliff who's played by, how do you say it --
ROWAN: Bill Nighy.
JAZZA: -- is it Bill Nighy? Okay, thank god. Oh, thank god. And Imelda Staunton, who plays, uh...
ROWAN: Hefina.
JAZZA: Hefina. What a bloody cast. And then obviously, we haven't mentioned Andrew Scott, who plays Gethin, and Dominic West who plays Jonathan, and like, this is just an, an amazing, amazing cast.
ROWAN: This cast, like, did not miss. Every single person in this cast is unbelievably good
JAZZA: A hundred percent.
ROWAN: Um, including Ben, uh second name escapes me, he plays Mark, who is American.
JAZZA: Who does a, a really fantastic --
ROWAN: Unbelievably good accent.
JAZZA: -- uh, Northern Irish accent, which is very hard. I can only say ma-er, and squirrel.
ROWAN: That’s it. Yeah, no, the cast is, is unbelievable. I also enjoyed speaking of Mark, his awkward jokes, absolutely bombing. In front of the crowd, he gets told to give an impromptu speech, and he just sort of, he goes through what you can clearly see as this unplanned, like, he starts trying to do a joke and it doesn't quite work, and then he, very true to character, gets slightly frustrated. And it's just like, “Oh, for God's sake, like, one in five of you is statistically gay. Like, can we just…” and, I just love that sort of, really in-character moment, for him.
JAZZA: In the same, with parity, with how Dai was asked to do a speech at a drag bar in London. Mark gets asked to do the same in the coal mining community in the village hall that they have, where they drink their pints and do dances and, uh, do community things, I guess? I grew up in a village, I should know what we do in village halls. Um, and I expected him to stump it. He's charismatic, he's hot, he's got everything going for himself, right? He's got dangly earrings, that came back in like, 2020, with like, down with the kids. And he ends up accusing, accusing a fifth of people in there, of being gay and like, “Oh, that's not how you win over a Southern mining community, Mike— mate.”
ROWAN: Dai was much better at this than you are Mike, come on.
JAZZA: Yeah.
ROWAN: Or Mark, even. Mike's the other one.
JAZZA: Well, they don't talk about Great Northern Irish orators, do they?
ROWAN: Yeah, that’s true.
JAZZA: Bit of shade there.
ROWAN: So, this is also the part of the movie where we, we kind of start to realize that maybe this is, you know, not going to go the way that they hoped. They're all in sleeping bags on Dai’s living room floor. We're in a very cute scene where they're all in their individual little, little sleeping bags, with like, the moon and stars lighting them from the window, and they're all there like, “We need to leave.”
JAZZA: And discussing whether or not they’re gonna leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
ROWAN: “We need to go.”
JAZZA: I was actually genuinely worried about their safety there, because they've been wrapped. I mean, London is hardly a blanket, but it's at least a space where they have expectations of how they're going to be treated, and whether or not they are safe.
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: Whereas out here, this is new shit.
ROWAN: Yeah, unsure whether or not they can, they can do it, but they did— there is this real sense of, like, courage and standing up for their principles to stay, regardless.
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: And then we flash this really lovely scene of them, kind of walking out in the... in the hills, and Cliff does some poetry for them— which we’ll come back at the end of the movie and I'll talk about that because I cry every time. And we get introduced to the moto— motif of joined hands. Which, again, we have been doing during lockdown since our last episode, a lot of watch, watch alongs weekly and then monthly watch alongs. And almost always, it turns out, there is a lot of fair focus on hands in gay movies. Hands are in fact gay.
JAZZA: Hands are inherently gay, it’s confirmed.
ROWAN: Confirmed, and so this movie only adds to that trope. So, Dai talks a little bit about the idea of like, this 100-year-old banner that they have from this particular village and it has this, these two joint hands and it essentially, means solidarity. And so we have this motif that links to this theme of solidarity. So, obviously we know it's going to come back, and be emotionally resonant, and I am so ready for it.
JAZZA: It is this... it is this moment that I've written down, uhm, Siân the sleeper agent, has been activated.
ROWAN: Yes.
JAZZA: And so the villagers, the Welsh villagers, start talking about, uhm, some of the stuff that the police have been doing. And the queers know their rights, and they’re like, “No, they literally can't do that. That is against the law, they can't keep you for a certain amount of time, they can only arrest you if they have a reasonable suspicion of being able to arrest you.” And Siân goes “Right then.” And then storms down to the police station and gets a load of the young lads who were arrested on the picket line, released, because the police didn't have any standing. And that really resonates with me, it's kind of like, that is the sharing of resources, --
ROWAN: Mhmm.
JAZZA: -- the sharing of knowledge. And that's why things like unions exist, --
ROWAN: Exactly.
JAZZA: and should exist, and why they are powerful. Because, when you are divided, and you don't share this knowledge, that is when you are defeated, and that is when you are weak. And Siân becomes, all of a sudden, she realizes the injustice that has been a frontage to her community. And she goes down there and sort shit out, which is a wonderful— I mean, we've already seen, kind of like, a rambunctious part of Siân already. Also, can I just say, fantastic mullet in this movie.
ROWAN: Absolutely incredible. Again, coming back, 2021 mullets, who knew?
JAZZA: Right? Oh, my God, we've gone full circle, is it the 80s? Bloody hope not. The woman, who this character is based on, ended up being a member of parliament for Swansea, for 10 years between 2005 and 2015. And this is, kind of like, part of her political activation. When she's spoken about it, she kind of like, talks as well of... of how kind of like, the strike itself, really was like an activation point for her too. But I just love this moment of her, kind of coming to that political realization.
ROWAN: We have this... this moment, I would consider it to be a kind of intercommunity collaboration moment, and it's almost immediately followed by a sort of intra-community issue between people within the same community, because we have this exchange about what's essentially respectability politics. The idea of like, we should calm down the flamboyance a bit, we should be less flamboyant. And, uhm, we have Jonathan basically, being like, “Ah, I know this is code for ‘I should be less me, I should turn the flamboyance down” and he basically is like “I’m sorry, I haven't spoken 1950’s in a while.” And we have this idea of like, actually, these older gay guys, who have had their own struggles in the 50’s, and like pre-decriminalization in the UK, and all this kind of stuff. And then we have these younger gays who, to us, are elders now, who are going through their own self, and trying to work out a way of, you know, being respected but still being yourself. I just really like how this movie manages to get so many people's point of view, because they have so many different voices; able to voice those things and give them, kind of, equal weight, or give them their own kind of place in the story.
JAZZA: We see that kind of conflict within the Welsh mining community as well, with Maureen kind of like, leading the charge of, you know, we'll call it homophobia, and how encouraging her sons to also be homophobic towards LGSM. But despite that, they continue to kind of like, stay there, get welcomed into the community. The boys who've been released because Siân went down to the police station, uhm, one of them goes up to Mark, he goes, “You'll have a pint then, Mark, will you?” I— I leak from my eyes, every time, the solidarity!
ROWAN: It's really interesting, because Maureen's whole thing is, she talks about, you know, you don't want people taking the piss to you, your father would never have stood for it. It's a lot about appearances mattering, more than solidarity. And I think that's a lot of this idea of like, don't be too flamboyant, don't be this. It's the idea of like, actually, the material solidarity doesn't matter. It's all about how it looks or how other people will feel about it. And I think that that's like a really, it's a really interesting one where you, because you're able to sympathize, in some ways with this kind of idea of what, we have our own battles, and we don't want to jeopardize our own battles for this other community, like, we need to fight ourselves first. But like, ultimately, that's not going to work, like, everyone has to be uplifted together. We basically get a scene where they all start coming together. Importantly, I think, through Jonathan's flamboyance, right? This thing that was meant to be tearing them apart, and the thing they had to get rid of, in order to be accepted, is actually the thing— like, you don't have to choose between those things, people can accept you for who you are and that can be a strength. We love to see it. Once they've joined with the miners, everything's beautiful. They go back to London, and they start kind of, collecting money again, and some time passes, and they end up coming back to Wales. And during that very short amount of time that has passed, it is very clear that things have gotten way worse within the village.
JAZZA: So it's wintertime, --
ROWAN: Wintertime,
JAZZA: -- now.
ROWAN: Gas getting cut off, buildings bricked up, vehicles broken down laying on the side of the road. And we've come back— this time, the thing that is different is that Gethin’s there. He's finally decided he's going to come back to Wales, after a very heartfelt phone call on the phone with Hefina who recognizes his Welsh accent and essentially encourages him to come back to... come back home. And immediately I'm like, wow, the waterworks are starting already in this movie.
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: And at this point, we do get the bit that you kind of hinted at earlier about the lesbians, and that we should probably talk about because I do agree that is probably the weakest element of the film.
JAZZA: Yeah. So, there's Steph who is our prime lesbian. And then, there is a couple, who are also part of LGSM, and they look like they are— they are being framed as being frivolous, about the needs of having a women's group for LGSM. And it's clear, by the way, that it is fielded by Mark's character, and by the way that she presents it, that is intended to be seen as something that is “Oh, we don't need to talk about that. Why would you bring up women's issues in a miners’ strike, for goodness sake?” Just as we have seen the work the women of the community that they're supporting, have been putting in; raising money, putting together food drives, supporting the men, driving them to the picket lines, and later on, in a beautiful musical moment of “Bread and Roses” that we’ll come to. I don't know what the movie is trying to tell me here, with this— with this over, I feel like she's painted as like, an overly activist lesbian.
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: And I don't get why.
ROWAN: It does what I was worried, that they would do about the queer activists to the fe— to the like, the feminist activists, especially because you're completely right, having a women's group would actually be a very good idea for a community that has been asking women to do unpaid labor for a long time, before this. And now they're having to do even more to support their families as, like, housewives and mothers. We have this whole storyline with Siân and the fact that she is expected to be a housewife and a mother, and it's very clearly to do with her gender. And they also point out, like, there's no democratic process. And I'm like, yeah, that's who... that probably is quite an issue within a... within this kind of organization, you probably shouldn't have it just, I know, Mark’s great, but you probably should have some kind of, like, structure in place to deal with this stuff. And it is very much paid off as a joke. I will say that's like, my only misstep that I feel like this movie really took was trying to... to use this as part of the humor rather than part of the drama bit of the movie. Didn't kind of work very well, for me. I do think that they kind of like, they did include some really interesting storylines that were around women in the movie, and were around their particular journeys, so it wasn't that this movie was completely devoid of like good female characters, or giving them a representation of these real people. It's just when they started to talk about it very explicitly, it became a bit weird. Uhm, so yes, do... do agree with you on that, I will concede, of one of my favorite movies, that is indeed, a lacking element.
JAZZA: We're given that lacking scene, but then we really are given a huge juxtaposition in the musical number of the Welsh women of the village, standing up and singing Bread and Roses.
ROWAN: And then everyone's standing up and singing Bread and Roses.
JAZZA: And we cry.
ROWAN: Every time.
JAZZA: So, Bread and Roses, I won't go too much into it, but it's basically a song about the need for sustenance in bread and dignity in roses. And it's kind of like a lefty song. Uhm, has a lot of history, internationally, as well— as well as in the UK. I mean, also, there's kind of, like, the stereotype of the Welsh singing choir.
ROWAN: That's true. I feel like in a lot of other movies, this wouldn't have worked. But, Welsh people, as we all know, love a sing-song. So, it really worked itself out.
JAZZA: Yeah, this wouldn’t have worked in the mines of Kent, wouldn't it?
ROWAN: Not so much. And this is also like, this should be a musical. Like this, this movie is quintessential. Like, in the same way that Billy Elliot absolutely rocked it as a musical. I feel like this is like a Billy Elliot, and everyone's talking about Jamie, together— are you kidding me? Showstopping. I would fund it myself if I had any money.
JAZZA: Hey, support us on Patreon, and maybe we will one day.
ROWAN: There we go. We will petition everyone involved in this movie to make this into a musical. So, also in the second section, we have this... this Gethin storyline. Where he basically decides to go and visit his mum. Again, I think in a more serious movie, for them to have basically had Hefina be like, “Oh, I'm sure your homophobic mom is fine now” probably would have been a bit like, oh, okay, that seems a bit iffy. But I think because this is, by its nature, a very feel good movie, where a lot of things end up as good as they possibly could be. And we know later on we have a family— Bromley’s family who are very unsupportive and continue to be unsupportive, and are clearly not changing their minds. Having a character who does actually change for the better, was kind of a nice refreshing counterpart to that. And also in real life, Gethin’s mom was always extremely supportive, apparently. She's super into gay rights and helping her son, which is lovely to hear.
JAZZA: That's cute. The only thing that I think is, ah, again, a lacking thing in this movie is the unrealistic portrayal of the efficiency of traveling from South Wales to North Wales.
ROWAN: That is very true.
JAZZA: He wouldn't— he would not have done that in the morning. From Pembrokeshire to Rhyl, is at least a full day's drive.
ROWAN: He was just really speeding it down. So, leading us into our third party, they decide to do the third party after having a brick thrown through the window. I think it's pretty sad but important to say that like Gay’s The Word is not immune from vandalism within our current times. They have been broken into, and vandalized, even in the last few years. And so this sadly is like, not stopped. But, this brick has some newspaper wrapped around it that describes them as perverts, pits and perverts.
JAZZA: Which was a real headline in the mail.
ROWAN: It was a real headline, and they basically, have this little exchange where Mark says, “Look Bromley, this is a classic experience that you will have as a queer person, which is that when someone calls you a name, you take it and you own it.” And they use “Pits and Perverts” as the title of this big fundraiser that they're going to do to raise money for the miners. And that leads us into part three.
JAZZA: The third party, and its third aftermath.
ROWAN: So, during Pits and Perverts, it's incredible. A lot of it goes through, we don't see much of the actual concert, we see a lot of the montage of the prep. Uhm, but I do think an important moment to mention within the concert, is another hand scene, which is as Dai’s on stage, talking about solidarity in holding hands, Bromley holds hands with a boy for, it’s implied the first time, so he can kiss— can kiss a boy for the first time. And I cry my eyes out, because there's a lot of different hand holding that happens in this movie, from solidarity, to romance, to queerness, to friendship, and I thought was a really beautiful moment that we then immediately go into all of the Welsh ladies wanting to go and see the rubber scene. We love the juxtaposition in this movie. It is fantastic. And while they are out on the town, we have another, I think really important moment, which is they bump into Russell Tovey, and in a very gay British royalty cameo, where he talks about being on his farewell tour. He doesn't say HIV, he doesn't say AIDS, but like, we know.
JAZZA: We know, yeah.
ROWAN: The movie has a lot of moments where it gives us a visual or it gives us a hint, and it doesn't say explicitly, and we understand what it means. And that's one of those moments. It's very beautiful, understated, this very quiet moment, he kisses Mark on the steps, and he goes, and we know that there's been this tonal shift that we're going into this, the third of the— of the movie that's going to start to get to, to that really dark place where like, the worst is yet to come.
JAZZA: And that plants that fear. We see that fear be laden onto Mark, from this point onwards, really until kind of like the... the closing scenes with the last Pride March. That was something that, that gay men and the queer community, in general, are carried around on their backs for decades, because of the threat and the fear of HIV. And it's real, kind of like, I don't think unless you're paying attention, you'd necessarily notice it. But it's a real change in the actor's performance. It's really great.
ROWAN: Absolutely. And then we get to that darkest moment, so the, you know, the traditional bit in the story where you get— before you have the big triumphant win. If you're going to have a happy story like this one, you need the moment where everything seems lost. And we get it on both a kind of political and a personal level, because simultaneously, we have the personal loss of Bromley; his family finding out that he's gay, and his mom basically giving this speech where she assumes that he will have a horrible, awful life, and --
JAZZA: It’s so lonely, she says.
ROWAN: It’s so lonely. Oh my god, it's, again. It's this, it's this complete understanding of like, where this woman is coming from if all she's heard about being gay is how awful it is. She's like, trying to protect her son, but he's clearly so happy with his friends with this other family that he's made. And then we also have this political kind of climax happening, where Cliff is forced to take the meeting early. Cliff, probably the least qualified person to talk about this stuff in terms of, like, his own nervousness.
JAZZA: This is back in, back in Wales.
ROWAN: Yes, back in Wales. That the committee is meeting and they've pushed the meeting earlier. And so, he, who is very good at quoting other people's poetry, but, bless him, very terrible at making speeches for himself, is attempting to make this big speech and, unlike Dai rising to the occasion, making an incredible speech, he just can't do it. He just hated that moment, --
JAZZA: He chokes.
ROWAN: -- he completely chokes.
JAZZA: The queers and the women who've been out on the town aimed to make it back for the vote at three. And the vote is to, is for whether or not they're going to continue taking money from the LGSM group. And after all of the bad press that they have had, and being bullied in the tabloids, they bring it forward, three hours. And just as the LGSM folks and that women from the village rock up, we find out that the committee who were present, despite the attempts from Siân's husband and Cliff to pause it, or stop it, or to say that it was undemocratic, it has been passed and they've decided not to take LGSM’s money.
ROWAN: And there's this one moment, which again, is one of those moments that becomes more poignant when you rewatch this movie. Dai says to Mark “Don't give it all to the fight, save some for home. There's more to life.” Which obviously by the end, that you know that Mark didn't live more than two years after that moment, --
JAZZA: Mmm.
ROWAN: -- like in… in real life, is so sad and so poignant in that moment. And also again, as he said, the character of Mark has some of, already sort of knowing that potentially, this is a much more important statement that isn't going to be like, “You know In 20-30 years time when you’re still doing this…”, and so we have this moment of, okay, well, everything that we've been working towards is now dissolving. And in that final awful moment, we get the final, even more awful moment that just takes— takes the audience, to like, the lowest point in the movie, which is Gethin, getting gay bashed.
JAZZA: Mmm.
ROWAN: Which is a very much, a sort of, traumatic gay trope in a lot of movies. But it's one of those tropes where, tropes in general are not inherently bad, it's when they kind of— I, personally, I think when they're overused, or they're used badly, or they're not kind of done in a respectful way, and this was one of those moments that just kind of felt like it was, it had been hinted out throughout the entire movie, that actually, it's quite dangerous to be a queer person at this point in time, especially if you're very outwardly queer, especially if you're kind of political. They've had bricks thrown through their windows, all this kind of stuff, it didn't feel like it came from nowhere, or for shock value. It felt like it was something that these characters were almost expecting. And it was just a matter of when.
JAZZA: I mean, there's been a... there's been a drumbeat of homophobic abuse; graffiti, bricks, through windows, just kind of like, even in the background, like, as they're taking off on the bus for the first time. You see Gethin scrubbing off --
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: -- faggots on the window and stuff like that. And it's not even mentioned, because it is assumed that it is normal. And so, when we see this, it isn't a surprise for us, I do think.
ROWAN: Absolutely not. And there's also, just before it happens, these two guy— gay guys confront him and say, “You know, there’s gay people dying every day of AIDS. That's what you should be worried about.” This idea of actually, when the stress has happened, that's when the community fractures. And people start, like, trying to “look after their own”. And actually, again, it's one of those moments where solidarity is what's needed. So, we also kind of flashback to Wales at this point, in this very sweet little scene, where Cliff comes out, which I think is delightful.
JAZZA: Oh my heart.
ROWAN: And I love it so much. It's just really quiet. He's just buttering bread, bless him. And just comes out to Hefina and she kind of says that she's sort of known for a long time. Everything then makes sense about the way Cliff has been acting and --
JAZZA: And Imelda Staunton, she says, “I know.” And then Cliff says “How long?” and she, “Well, since 1968.”
ROWAN: A long time.
JAZZA: Yeah, a while.
ROWAN: She's, uh, she has known. So, it's at this point that the strike ends, and the miners are not victorious.
JAZZA: The miners lost.
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: Spoil, uh.
JAZZA & ROWAN: Spoiler alert for history.
ROWAN: And I think that's really interesting, because I think in fiction, that probably wouldn't have happened, right? Like, if we were making this up from scratch, it would be like a big triumphant moment. But it's like no, no. And Mark and Bromley, both for different reasons, go back to Wales, with this kind of last hurrah, where the men are going to, back to the pits, back to work.
JAZZA: And was a real representation of how a lot of miners did return to work. So, they are accompanied by the band. And they're marched in, like soldiers, like heroes. And across the country, there were, Arthur Scargill, who was the head of the miners’ union and was marched into work with a Scottish Piper, what are they called, bagpipes? Yeah, Scottish piper, that is what they’re called. And many wore chrysanthemums on their lapels, because that's a flower that represents he— heroism, and stuff like that. It was a real defining moment for that community.
ROWAN: So, I think the— one of the important things to talk about just in this next section, that we get is essentially like, in the hospital. With Gethin, we find out that Jonathan is HIV positive.
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: Which again, is one of those things that he's clearly known for a long time. And it hasn't come up yet, but it's clearly been something these two men have been dealing with in their relationship. And it, is another one of those moments where we realize, people have such intricate and detailed lives beyond what we're finding out, like, moment to moment in this movie. And he talks about the idea of him being the second person who was diagnosed in the UK, he's number two, and kind of encouraging Siân to do something with her life. And as we find out, at the end, this isn't the Bury Your Gays trope of the gay person, giving inspiration to the straight person, like, “Life is short, I am gay and dead.” Like, “do something with your life” which I really appreciated that there was, they kind of like, subverted that trope a little bit and kind of had them both, kind of get what they wanted.
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: And we also have the confrontation at Bromley's house, right? We have this reminder of Gethin’s mom coming in, and we remember her being really supportive. And then we flashed to Bromley's house, well, that's not what happens. You know, we see what... what real, true loving family shouldn't do, which is essentially just reject you --
JAZZA: Reject him.
ROWAN: -- be more— find appearances more important. And he basically just leaves. Has a real sassy ending to his relationship with his family, and goes to this pub and you see him again, another moment, which didn't need dialogue, was just all in the looks. He sees this young man, who's really nervously sitting at this table, like, by himself, and he smiles and he's clearly remembering like a year ago; he was that, he was that man, and he's completely changed. And goes to Steph and they --
JAZZA: And Steph pushes across a pint.
ROWAN: It's very, of course. The true... the true meaning of solidarity. And they have that scene that I love, where they're both lying next to each other and she says “If we were normal, this is when we kiss” and then they hold hands instead. Which is, ah sort of…
JAZZA: Hands are gay.
ROWAN: Hands are gay.
JAZZA: Hands are gay.
ROWAN: Our third hand-holding moment.
JAZZA: This culminates in the following pride.
ROWAN: Yes, we are finally back, a year later.
JAZZA: Yeah, and we are, LGSM are deciding to march. Everybody is convening on Hyde Park, which if anybody has gone to Pride in London, that is— I don't think it is anymore, but it used to be where the, where the march started, and then you'd march towards Leicester Square and then Parliament. It now does a slightly different route because it's not political anymore.
ROWAN: Jazza, I'm obsessed with the fact that we have approximately five minutes to run through the entire rest of this movie, and you’re like, “Well I don’t know if it’s anymore— but earlier, it was in Hyde Park. Different route now, of course, it's a different time and also…” JAZZA: Okay, fair. Okay. Okay. Your... your point is well made. Your point is well made.
ROWAN: Oh, my god. Where we were? We’re at Pride. And at Pride, the gays will come together in solidarity. All the friendships are mended. Mark comes, apologizes to Mike. It's beautiful. Friendships are important. Romantic relationships are important. The cops continue to be dickheads. All is right with the world again. We have this argument about whether it's too political, they want to take the politics out of... out of pride. You have to march in the back of the parade, if you want to be political. We want a celebration this year.
JAZZA:Very 2020’s.
ROWAN: Very 2020’s. Very, every single, bloody year, we have Pride. And Bromley is the one who takes charge this time, and basically just says like, “What's important is that we march together, we have to be united.” And it's like, yes, that is the theme of the movie, Bromley. You state that theme, buddy! And as he says that, a van arrives, and we have, the immortal line --
JAZZA AND ROWAN: “Where are my lesbians?”
ROWAN: I, weep. I absolutely weep. Then we have the, and already I'm like, oh I'm like, laughing, I'm crying. And then they hit you with the double whammy of, there's too many of you. You'll have to march at the front.
JAZZA: Because the whole miners’ union, in all of the vans and coaches have turned up to support because of the amount of money that was raised by LGSM --
ROWAN: I’m absolutely bawling.
JAZZA: -- in solidarity.
ROWAN: And, Lee is there too. Which I don't think I noticed the first couple of times I've watched it. So he's also had a change of heart.
JAZZA: Oh, wow.
ROWAN: Which we love to see. Yeah, he's like the first one off the bus. They do like a, slightly longer linger on him. And I was like, “Oh my god, it's the, it's the guy who was homophobic before!” But I like to think, it's like, in my head, I'm like, oh, these characters have been existing when we couldn't see them. Cliff would have come out, who is his uncle…
JAZZA: Yes. Yeah.
ROWAN: Like, he's like, related to him. So, I imagine that... that might have informed him— kind of having this member of his family as well. We love to see it. And so this is really, like, it's not a political victory for either side, right? Like, we still have the lack of age of consent, and many other things that, you know, you know, rights we didn't have.
JAZZA: The worst of the HIV crisis is ahead of us.
ROWAN: Exactly.
JAZZA: Right, uhm. All of the pits are going to close --
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: -- in the next like, 10 to 15 years.
ROWAN: By all means, it's not a happy ending. But it is, because we have this really beautiful, like, uplifting positive ending for the human beings involved, and for their relationship, and their solidarity, and their friendship, which I think is so freaking adorable.
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: And that's essentially where it— where the actual story element of this movie ends with, everyone getting off the bus, them having to be at the front, it's really moving and beautiful. And then we get— if I ever make it through this movie to this point, and haven't cried, the bit that absolutely will have me bawling, which is the classic end of a biopic --
JAZZA: Mhmm, mhmm.
ROWAN: -- telling you where everyone is now. And as in this movie, as Billy Bragg plays in the background, it's... it just gets me every single time. Before that actually, we do have Cliff seeing the gay poetry banner, I said that that will come back up.
JAZZA: Oh, my God, and just like, shimmies in.
ROWAN: He, it's so, so beautiful. The idea that he can have this... this like, wonderful community that he's going to find his people, at last. That's the moment, that if I haven't cried so far in the movie, I've never got past that point and not cried, because I do think it's such a small beautiful moment. So, fun fact about this bit on the bridge, actual people involved in LGSM, and the minor strike, had cameos in that final scene. Including Reggie and Ray, Gethin, Gethin’s mom, and Mike.
JAZZA: Love that.
ROWAN: Which is very sweet. They dressed them up in 80’s clothes, and they got to be in the movie, which is really fun. And we learn about Jonathan, the fact that Jonathan's still alive, even though he was like this number 2, in the UK, of being diagnosed. And then immediately afterwards, we basically hear about Mark, who was dead within --
JAZZA: And how Mark dies, only at two --
ROWAN: -- 2 years, --
JAZZA: 2 years afterwards.
ROWAN: -- at 26.
JAZZA: Yeah.
ROWAN: Significantly younger than both of us, even.
JAZZA: Which, then—how dare you?
ROWAN: Yeah, I know.
JAZZA: And then we also get, so this film ends in political failure, really. On both sides, of the rights of LGBT people, and on the side of the miners trying to organize and save their livelihoods, but they culminate in political victories far down the lines. Siân, I think is the embodiment of that --
ROWAN: Absolutely.
JAZZA: -- as an elected member of Parliament for the Labour Party between 2005 and 2015. But we also find out that, the Labour Party's support of same sex marriage was in part, voted through on the Labor Party conference floor because of support from the largest miners’ union, not least because of the support that they've been given through the years of the strike. Solidarity forever.
ROWAN: Yeah, I mean, and I think it's really significant that, in the song in the background, it's when the chorus— the choir comes in, the choir starts singing, that it talks about the idea of this like block support from the Union of Mineworkers. And then at the end, of the last image, a final image of the banner that we finally get to see, the two hands intertwined. And I just want to go --
JAZZA: Hands are gay!
ROWAN: I don't know if you know about the song that plays over the credits.
JAZZA: The... and then, then, the union.
ROWAN: No, that's the one that plays during that part, when the credits start rolling. The first song that comes up, is just like a piece of music that is, in the movie, the second song that plays at the end, is actually a song called For A Friend, that was written for Mark Ashton, by two of his friends. And it is beautiful. And it has these lines that, again, I'm like, I'm going to try and read up, but I genuinely might start crying. “ I never cried the way I cried over you; as I put down the telephone and the world it carried on; somewhere else, someone else is crying too; another man has lost a friend, I bet he feels the way I do” And it's this stunning, beautiful piece that they were able to use for the... for the ending, specifically for Mark, who was someone, who was just so seemingly loved by the community and adored and like, had such a shining life ahead of him.
JAZZA: We lost so many Marks.
ROWAN: That was like, so, kind of tragically taken away. As so many, like, young... young men, young people were at the time. And so that, that was Pride, like, this is this movie. It's... it's a mix of like, heartbreak, and solidarity, and joy, and history, and like, comedy and like, all of the things that... that I love.
JAZZA: It's all of the things, isn't it?
ROWAN: It was beautiful.
JAZZA: You know what it isn't, though? It's not a horror movie,
ROWAN: That is true, and therefore, you liked it for that very specific reason.
JAZZA: Exactly.
ROWAN: As someone who hates all horror. So, now we've literally gone over like, absolutely everything about this movie; its context, it's how we felt about it, some scenes, it is in fact time to do the rating. Our rating, the way that it works is that we pick how many stripes of the rainbow flag we think this would have gotten. And also, which stripes it would have gotten, which colors, kind of based on the --
JAZZA: Mhmm.
ROWAN: -- the meanings behind those colors, because, in case you didn't know, they all have meanings. I mean, it's no secret. I'm giving it six. I don't know what to tell you. It's getting every single color of the rainbow flag. I adore this movie. And I'm going to give it... gonna give it all of them.
JAZZA: Uhm, surprise, surprise, this is a really boring review section, not a review section, but uh, a rating section. Also six. Really, really brilliant, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple. And yes, I did have to bring that up. I had to google that in order to remember what six colors were in the pride flag.
ROWAN: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's not really much else to say in terms of the ratings. Like, there's no controversy there. We really love this movie. And I'm sure everyone else who's watched it, is also as enamored with it as we are. We had— we had so many notes for this movie that we couldn't even read all of them. I could talk about this movie forever and ever and ever. But sadly, we can't because you know, you have other things to do with your life, listener. You only have a certain amount of time to listen to this podcast, and it's almost over. I think the only thing we need to say is... is a nice little close, to let you know where you can find us on the internet if you want to --
JAZZA: Yeah.
ROWAN: -- chat to us about gay things, all of the— all of that good stuff, that we do at the end of podcasts.
JAZZA: 100% So please do follow the podcast on Twitter. It is a great way to keep up with the community and you can also join our Discord where we still do monthly watch alongs. The last Saturday of every month. They are a lot of fun.
ROWAN: Our patrons on Patreon really do allow us to put in the hours of research and recording that goes into these episodes. So, if you felt entertained by this podcast, please do consider supporting us over there as well.
JAZZA: Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast as well so that you are primed for our next episode. Thank you so much, everybody. You'll hear us really soon. The Queer Movie Podcast is presented— surprise, surprise, by Jazza John and Rowan Ellis, and it is edited by, the incomparable, Julia Schifini. Who really does have to deal with a lot of our rubbish.
ROWAN: We're a part of Multitude. Check out all the other awesome podcasts in the collective at multitude.productions.
Transcribed by: Macy Castañares
Edited by: Krizia Marrie Casil